Any Sami speakers reading this blog? :-)

by Michael S. Kaplan, published on 2005/11/11 00:01 -08:00, original URI: http://blogs.msdn.com/michkap/archive/2005/11/11/491211.aspx


About a year ago I talked about "What the %$#! are genitive dates?" and then yesterday I talked about them again and then again.

It turns out there may also be different behavior for Sami, a language for which we added nine locales in Windows XP SP2:

  • Northern Sami - Norway
  • Northern Sami - Sweden
  • Northern Sami - Finland
  • Lule Sami - Norway
  • Lule Sami - Sweden
  • Southern Sami - Norway
  • Southern Sami - Sweden
  • Skolt Sami - Finland
  • Inari Sami - Finland

    The exact information was sketchy (admittedly it may just be that I did not understand the information) but apparently there may be different cases where genitive month forms would sometimes be used and sometimes not, depending on the format being used and whether the month name comes before or after the day.

    Here is what we have using that code from the other day, using the "Northern Sami - Norway" locale:

    oddajagemánnu   oddajagemánu    oddajagemánu 1. b. 2005
    guovvamánnu     guovvamánu      guovvamánu 1. b. 2005
    njukcamánnu     njukcamánu      njukcamánu 1. b. 2005
    cuoŋománnu      cuoŋománu       cuoŋománu 1. b. 2005
    miessemánnu     miessemánu      miessemánu 1. b. 2005
    geassemánnu     geassemánu      geassemánu 1. b. 2005
    suoidnemánnu    suoidnemánu     suoidnemánu 1. b. 2005
    borgemánnu      borgemánu       borgemánu 1. b. 2005
    cakcamánnu      cakcamánu       cakcamánu 1. b. 2005
    golggotmánnu    golggotmánu     golggotmánu 1. b. 2005
    skábmamánnu     skábmamánu      skábmamánu 1. b. 2005
    juovlamánnu     juovlamánu      juovlamánu 1. b. 2005

    Are there any native Sami speakers who can help shed light on whether there is a problem here, and how common that problem might be seen? Would you expect the nominative month name to be used if the parts of the date string were ordered differently?

    And there was one more question for you, if you are out there and willing to answer.... :-)

    When the Sami locales were added in Windows XP SP2, there was no information of the collation used by any of the nine. It seemed to be more sensible to at least use the Norwegien, Swedish, and Finnish collations for the various Sami locales as appropriate, but it is unclear if there is a specific collation preference for Sami beyond that or instead of that. Any takers?

     

    This post brought to you by "á" (U+00e1, a.k.a. LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH ACUTE)


  • # Nick Lamb on Friday, November 11, 2005 6:22 AM:

    "cuo?ománnu"

    Does Sami really use U+003F as an alphabetic character or is this another bug somewhere?

    There are likely to be plenty of Sami speakers who can read your blog but have no useful opinion on the written Sami language because they were mostly taught the language of the majority population. With only a few thousand potential users (generous estimate) of some locales listed above you're skating on thin ice. Are you sure a dozen Americans who read your blog could reproduce the US English collation or come close? I certainly wouldn't trust the average US citizen to "correct" my spelling and grammar in translations...

    # Michael S. Kaplan on Friday, November 11, 2005 8:36 AM:

    Whoops, that was my fault -- the character was U+014b (ŋ, LATIN SMALL LETTER ENG) which is not on the code page I set. Fixed now....

    For the other question, I am just soliciting opinions. Of course actual decisions will be researched further.

    Plus I am not sure I have a dozen readers, it may be only half that. :-)

    # Michael S. Kaplan on Friday, November 11, 2005 10:40 AM:

    Hi Nick --

    Oh, and to answer the other question you raised, I suppose I could also be looking for some feedback from Sami speakers on what was done to get some opinions. Although it was perhaps reasonable, there is really no way to guess what people might be expecting....

    # Paul on Sunday, November 13, 2005 4:34 PM:

    You have 239 subscribers in Bloglines (myself being one of them) - though I have no idea if any of them speak Sami.

    # Michael S. Kaplan on Sunday, November 13, 2005 5:13 PM:

    I have high hopes that someone will eventually notice this post....

    # Audun Lona on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 6:53 AM:

    These documents should answer most of your questions.

    http://www.samit.no/01-850-86.pdf
    http://www.samit.no/04-560-1.pdf

    # Michael S. Kaplan on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 7:07 AM:

    Hello Audun Lona,

    The second document confirms that the behvaior is correct for the formats we specify, but there was a suggestion that when the month name came after the date that the nominative form would be used rather than the genitive one?

    And neither document talks about the collation issue.

    But it is a start, definitely....

    # Audun Lona on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:07 AM:

    The second document confirms that the behvaior is correct for the formats we specify, but there was a suggestion that when the month name came after the date that the nominative form would be used rather than the genitive one?

    Ill check this issue, and give you an answer.

    And neither document talks about the collation issue.

    What, exactly do you want to know?

    # Audun Lona on Saturday, November 19, 2005 5:56 PM:

    Talking about Sami, have You ever commented this document?

    http://www.kotoistus.fi/avoimet/kbpropr1.pdf

    Is it probobale that Microsoft will follow up this proposal?

    Audun

    # Michael S. Kaplan on Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:23 PM:

    There are both Swedish and Finnish government/standards folks in communication with Microsoft about the various keyboarding issues here. It is not really my area, precisely. So I do not know if this document is a part of it. But I think the right people are involved....

    # Audun Lona on Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:43 PM:

    OK. But the Sami Parliaments and the ministers in Finland, Norway and Sweden have given their opinion - why cant You just follow that?

    The last proposal is from the finnish standards orgranisation, and it has no support from the ministrys and standards-organisations in Norway and Sweden... Why is this proposal so important?

    Audun

    # Michael S. Kaplan on Saturday, November 19, 2005 9:30 PM:

    Since I did not say that the proposal IS IN FACT one under discussion, the meaning behind your words is unclear to me.

    In this blog post, the only actual relevant topic is a desire on my part from a native speaker of Sami on a few linguistic issues that have not been answered in any document I have seen, at least not explicitly.

    What is done with keyboards that are not specifically "Sami" keyboards is kind of off-topic for this post, at least....

    referenced by

    2010/09/13 Olive, the other reindeer, gets to Sort it all Out too....

    2010/09/09 Latvian. Genitive. Oops.

    2008/05/14 Windows is too busy being consistent with the user to be consistent with itself!

    2007/08/04 A re-genitive post

    2006/03/20 Practical Uses for Replacement Cultures/Locales

    2005/11/12 One last post about genitive dates

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